Dragons & the 7th Kingdom
This is a thread to explore the subject of dragons and their possible relationship to the 7th Kingdom.
Key points to remember:
The 7th Kingdom was a integrated part of the Empire until the Destruction. It has become a Kingdom as a result of the Destruction and was NOT an independent Kingdom before it.
The 7th Kingdom must make sense within the history of the Empire and the current world and be balanced with the other Kingdoms. Ideally, it should contain the seeds of internal conflict, multiple story ideas, and open doors to the imagination so that other Artisans can play.
Review the 7th Kingdom forum posts for more info.
Dragons must have some weakness or limiting factor or they will quickly take over the world - few, if any, could stand in their way. If the world becomes all about dragons, it closes too many creative doorways for other Artisans not as interested in dragons.
Dragons must be somehow unique to Gallidon - a fresh take/approach/angle. They must make sense within the Gallidon Mythos.
We will need Works to define most of this - original stories and images will help seal this addition to the world.
If dragons & the 7th Kingdom become a truly collaborative creation within the world, I propose we create a separate listing on the Artisans of Gallidon page that lists all involved in this particular collaborative effort.
Let the ideas fly!
Steward of Gallidon
As laid down in the chronicles of Ptah, Master of Astral Travel, Greater Noble of Gallidon:
Dragons took various forms: some seeking the depths of the seas, others the heights of the sky, and still others sought deep places within the earth.
When Na'naat placed Gallidon in the world, when he gathered we seventeen that would become his Greater Nobles to his side, the Emperor-to-be used his art of Rune-weaving to bind these great creatures away from the world. It is my belief, Gallidon cast them into an eternal slumber, deep within their distant lairs.
What do you think of this as a start?
Sounds perfect. Are you going to add in anything about them in human form or leave that up to the individual artisans?
I'm not wearing my Steward hat in this thread. I'm just tossing ideas out - if someone has a better idea, we go with it! I've got no solid ideas about dragons in human forms. I'm enjoying the discussion & exchange of ideas.
This forum thread is about collaboration, not the world Stewards dictating something.
Okay, that being said, I think it would be cool to add something about a portion of the dragons made assuming human form for some reason or another or Gallidon (or even Naa'Nat(sp?)) binding them to human form. If it was the Creator who bound them it may be so that the new creatures would not create too much imbalance on Gallidon. However, if it was the Emperor, it could be out of fear (same reason he put many into a deep sleep).
Concerning writing and introducing Dragons to Gallidon. I think it would be good to do the following: Maybe having one of the dragons (again supposing some are in human form) traveling the known parts of Gallidon seeking a way to release his kins"men". I would be more than happy (in fact quite thrilled) to be part of the team that introduces dragons. I do believe, however, that Danor (I think that was his name) needs to head this up. Too many head chefs might stifle his personal creative process. Just a thought.
Thank you for honor of the nomination Cj of heading up putting dragons in Gallidon. I would only do so if 1) Ok with the Stewards 2) ok with those as far interested in putting Dragons in Gallidon.
Well Cj, too many chefs in any kitchen/restaurant would ruin any meal. But no man is an island, two are more heads are better then one, Rome wasn't built in a day, well you see what I am getting at.
We need to work together to to come up with this. If I was able to do it all myself submission would have already done the trick. I liked what Rune put in the introductions thread , which is also the origin of this Dragon Kingdom topic, and what you said Cj as well.
I think its very important that we all come up with the basis here in this topic before submissions. Because if we just leave it up to submissions, then it just becomes a submission race of who ever gets their work approved first!
I agree with tony that to root what we come up should be done in works and submissions.
But I also think its very important that we come up with a basic format of...
Origin, How did they get here
Idea 1) Dragons are from the age of distorder (see first post) Na'naat or The Emperor put them to sleep.
I say we merge the ideas togethe. This one and the ones presented in the introductions post. Dragons come to in Gallidon through the Maelstrom but Emperor Gallidon binds them in human form. This will allow us to develop them into the 7th Kingdom. If we just put them into a long slumber then I just seeing them becoming part of the monster base. It could be that some escaped their bonds, caused trouble and the long slumber was a punishment/imprisonment
I like the idea of the Emperor doing it and not Na'naat because if she does it. It seems just more final. How do you undo the power of the creator of the world?
Structure: Do they rule the 7th Kingdom in human form as I previously suggested? I like what Cj and I put into this in that some of the human form dragons are for and against humanity. It would great some nice conflict of interests that would generate some nice works/content.
Do they some how wake from their slumber and seek revenge? I don't see how there could be any good dragon characters to play with just the slumber idea. Who would want to protect someone who just locks you away because they are scared of you. Its possible, but that dragon would have to be extremely generous and forgiving.
I think we need to settle these two things first. From there we can work forward on how they contribute to the world of Gallidon.
- For 3 days dead scorched bones lay on the ground. They are all that remains of the previous posters. The Dragons have seemed to have laid waist to this topic**
That or holiday business or school finals have eaten up all our posters.
Has everyone read this thread? Any more thoughts, ideas, disagreements, agreements..... anything?
Am I to assume that people agree with the above posting or are afraid of the Dragon opposition. I think I could come up with a few Dragon slayers or ward spells that would work...maybe. Dunno yet.
Anyways, giving this thread a bump and hoping to rattle out some more discussion on this topic
The topic isn't dead it just smells funny. Ha! People might just be busy, or, like me, have limited internet access for the time being.
If the dragons were bound to human form, then it could also kind of be a metaphor for being put into a long "sleep". The sleep part could represent their dormant Dragon form and the powers they would have therein. Instead of it being a punishment, maybe they were bound as a kind of security measure. They might only become unbound when the world needs them. Other than that, they could have adapted, and build a kingdom as humans would. So in the 7th Kingdom, maybe there are just great castles and other mighty structures that they have created.
The power thing could still be a something though. Being named "protectors of the world" would come with great benefits I believe. But those powers may only be in their dragon form. Other than that they might just be like any other person.
I am going to start coming up with Dragon ideas that revolve around the Seventh Kingdom. Since this place has been quiet for a little while I am going to be the bold one and stake my claim in the Seventh Kingdom, calling Pearsontonia and declare myself Overlord...well, not exactly, but something like that.
I would also like to make a story with Dragons in this world. I've had a few thoughts on the subject, and may be able to come up with something
So, can we have a house (missing since the collapse of the 7th Kingdom) that could be the antithesis to all the other kingdoms and their Arts? Almost like a checks and balance where they are able to nullify, if for a moment the Arts of the other houses?
The key to making the 7th kingdom work is having it integrate logically with the existing mythos. Introducing a new house that could nullify all of the other houses would raise the question: why would Na'naat have done that? If you can answer that question in a way that makes sense with the rest of the mythos, you're on your way!
As fas as checks and balances go, it did exist in the empire. Gallidon and the Imperial Guard were able to take on the Houses individually, while the Houses collectively exerted an influence over the empire. Having so many Houses also made it difficult for any one House to assume control over the others, and petty jealousy would take care of the rest (just look at how quickly separate kingdoms sprang up after the Destruction).
At the end of the day, Gallidon was explicitly placed in the world to rule over the Houses and commoners in order to provide a safe, peaceful place for everyone to live. The Imperial Guard in particular are immune to many of the magics specifically so they can move against the Houses if necessary. In many ways, the Guard is, literally and figuratively, a mortal extension of Gallidon's Will.
Until the Destruction, the empire had existed as a (more or less) unified society for five thousand years. Would it have made sense for Gallidon to allow a rogue area to exist outside the structure of the empire (and his rule)? If so, why? Also, why would Na'naat have created that House if Gallidon and the Guard could already move against a House? How would the other Houses have reacted over the past five millenium to that (obvious) threat? Start by answering those questions in a way that makes sense with the rest of the mythos.
The answer to the question, "what is the 7th kingdom?" must begin with explaining why it would have been possible/probable during the past five thousand years. If you can answer that question, you're on your way to filling in the missing piece to Gallidon!
Good call. Did not think about that until AFTER I wrote it. I think I have an Art for the ruler of the Seventh Kingdom. Is there a House with the ability to control/communicate(?) with Vegetation?
There is no school of magic that can control or communicate with vegetation. At least, no school of magic mastered by any of the Greater Houses or Gallidon.
The Mythos has all the details on the historical and known magical powers of the Greater Houses.
As an aside, there is no reason the area being called the 7th Kingdom wasn't or isn't ruled by one of the Greater Houses (say, Dalia or Ptah). You don't have to use an existing House, but if you don't, you'll have more work to do to integrate it into the existing mythos.
Thoughts on Dragons: This is about as rough an idea as they come...any and all may feel free to mutilate, chop up, dissect or throw away and undesirable piece.
“Binding” the Dragons did not mean, as some have thought, putting them into a deep slumber, hidden away in their caves. Rather, the slumber was the “sleeping” or restraining of the Dragons themselves, bound to human form, greatly weakened from what they once were, but still as powerful as any adept. Where the Dragons came from, no one knows, but it is understood that some cause great havoc throughout Gallidon. In the end it was other dragons that stood against their brethren, which stemmed the tide of destruction.
When Gallidon and the Greater Nobles saw the destruction caused by the dragons it was clear that something had to be done to keep them from rising again. It was then decided that Gallidon must use his Art to bind the dragons in some way. He took council with one of the great dragons, one of those who opposed his brothers, and admitted that the only way to bind some of them was to bind all of them. After much discussion the great dragon realized that it was the only way to prevent another disaster.
In all it is believed that there were fifty dragons that emerged from the Maelstrom, with many of them bent upon conquering as they saw the world as weak during the Age of Disorder. Their kin who fought against them, maybe ten or so, along with the Greater Nobles, subdued the monsters and all fifty—willfully or not—were “bound” to human form. Gallidon, for their help in fighting against their brothers, gave the ten great dragons the what we now call the Seventh Kingdom, where their brothers have stayed imprisoned…until the Destruction.
I like your use of the Maelstrom, though I'm concerned about your timeline.
Your write-up infers that Gallidon existed during the Age of Disorder (or "BG," depending on which chronological term you want to use). Neither Gallidon nor the Greater Houses existed in the Age of Disorder. It was the arrival of Gallidon and the formation of the Greater Houses that ended the Age of Disorder, giving rise to the establishment of the empire and the subsequent five millennium of stability and peace ("AG").
Also, as stated in the Orders, it was the Spirits that very nearly destroyed the world and wiped out its inhabitants. Na'naat specifically sent Gallidon to reign in the Spirits and created the Greater Houses to assist him with that task.
Could there have been dragons before Gallidon? Sure. But they were definitely not around when he arrived (or to be more precise, if they were, the Orders don't mention them, which begs the question, 'why don't the Orders mention them?').
You're on to something here.
When Gallidon arrived, some things were simply swept under the carpet, others forgotten, and a few banished for as long as Gallidon was able to keep them locked up.
With Gallidon's disappearance, many of these things are emerging from history. The legends of the Age of Disorder may be just that - or they may be very real threats that have patiently sat in the shadows, waiting for an opportunity to reclaim their place in the world.
The Destruction threw open some windows and unlocked some doors that were best left closed...
P.S. To be clear, Tony's post above that discusses Gallidon's encounter with the dragons is not part of the Orders; it's the personal account of a Greater Noble. You're free to incorporate elements from Tony's post or ignore them, but you'll need to logically integrate them into the Mythos!
I recently submitted something about the Dragons for review. I wanted to see if the time line would work and all that good stuff before I got to far into it. There are a few similar ideas that are here, but at the same time completely different as a whole. How would we be able to make it so that everyone could write about the Dragons without one persons work getting in the way of a personal depiction of what someone else thinks that dragons could be like?
The short answer is that canonical priority will be given to submissions of a completed nature (i.e., a finished short story or a complete description of the 7th Kingdom (using the same format as found in The Kingdoms section - government, terrain, culture, etc.)).
Whatever plays out here on the forums (or the wiki) is great for generating ideas and collaborating, but at the end of the day, the only way for the creative community at large to expand the official Mythos of Gallidon is by having their submissions accepted as a Work and published as canon.
Ideas must be introduced into Gallidon within Works, and only Works are canonical content.
[Note: the one exception is for a submission to be labeled 'Alternate History.' Works categorized as Alternate History are non canonical, and they may conflict with world continuity.]
Also, while this thread originally started off with the idea of combining dragons and the 7th Kingdom, it appears to be making both efforts more complex. While it's possible to flesh out the 7th Kingdom by incorporating dragons, it's not required. Dragons can be addressed without referring to the 7th Kingdom and vice versa.
In fact, detailing the 7th Kingdom without dragons will probably be easier.
And since the topic of the 7th Kingdom has been split between the General Forum and The Workshop, I'm going to remind everyone on this thread to be sure to refer to the original post in the General Forum about the 7th Kingdom.
Lets just say that dragons are bound to a human form, and they interbreed with people, would half/quarter ect. dragons be alright to integrate into the world depending on how it was done? Or would be be more acceptable to have dragons be extraordinarily long lived, and just be good at changing themselves so that people don't get suspicious?
Also, failing those, would it be wrong to say that everyone knows who is a dragon, and everyone just accepts that, or something?
Rūne: Please don't shoot me, but my answer to all of the above is, "maybe." : )
I've already given you some feedback on your submission from last year, but to recap, I love many elements of it. You are clearly building on established mythology (yay!) while extending it in a respectful way (double yay!).
There are many ways to bring "dragons" into the Gallidon mythology, but the safer ways (read: better chance of acceptance) would be ones that kept the details of their own history pre-Gallidon, kept them as mysterious as possible, and did not explicitly allow them to assume dragon form.
In other words, by the time Gallidon comes on the scene, there should be no explicit dragons or references to them (how else to explain the lack of dragons in the Orders or established mythology of Gallidon?). Best to presume that Na'naat took care of that particular house cleaning chore before setting Gallidon on this world.
Also, the less the inhabitants of Gallidon know about dragons, the better. Commoners may whisper in the dark about winged creatures that brought fiery destruction in pre-Gallidon times, and nobles may make educated guesses about what really went on B.G....but after five millennia, neither knows for sure.
Finally, dragons in human form is ideal, since this allows them to "walk freely among us."
And given that there were not many to begin with (perhaps a few hundred at *most*), it's likely they scattered across the two continents, constantly wandering, unable to put down roots. Long-lived certainly makes sense. Immortal? Unlikely, but possible. Rumors of nobles finding or hiring a dragon descendant have surfaced, but these are considered wishful thinking by most.
So, 5,000 years later, while there are more descendants of the original dragons, you're quite right to follow the line of thinking that they are but a reflection of their original incarnation, and being bound in mortal form greatly restricts their powers. The call to take to the skies and reclaim their former nature beats in their blood. It's faint, but they hear it nonetheless.
And don't forget, it's doubtful that the remaining dragon descendants all agree on their role. There will be good ones, bad ones, and indifferent ones. Ones who seek to reclaim their glory, others committed to the oath they took thousands of years ago. Being bound in mortal coil has the drawback of introducing the same human failings we all suffer from, and dragons are not immune.
In closing, I love your idea that they suffer in silence, awaiting the time when they can once again be of service to Na'naat and repay their debt. That's a great theme to play with!
Can't shoot you for good feedback ;) This has helped a lot, actually. It's good to bounce ideas around. I have a couple different ways for dragons to come about, and they look promising. Though, done right, I think I can get it all in one thing. I am also working on this with Valesse, in collaboration for ideas. This will happen, or I will die trying!
Really glad to hear you and Valesse are working on this together - looking forward to seeing what you two create!
I'm just getting ideas everywhere now!
Concerning the 7th Kingdom, I would like to step away from having the Dragons be the ones who live there, or own it or whatever, and approach it as a different topic completely.
Ideas include it being surrounded by a barrier that Na'naat put there, or something, and that's why it is unknown. Though now that the destruction happened, the barrier had faded.
Possible place for spirits/fey to dwell. A specific place for them to live in abundance.
It being a very exotic place with strange fauna/flora. Mushroom trees or something of the sort.
This is just tossing the ideas around, but I wanted to get some thoughts on it anyhow.
First off, please post anything regarding the 7th Kingdom at the following thread (I think it will help if we keep these two topics running in separate threads!):
Secondly, to reiterate an earlier point about the 7th Kingdom, the original intent we had for the 7th Kingdom wasn't some newly discovered region. It was designed to give Artisans a chance to introduce a new culture and climate not already represented in Gallidon, but one that was always part of the empire.
Not to say that evil isn't springing up the kingdoms or even in large cities, but we created the Wastelands and the Empty Lands to be playgrounds for new, never-before-seen monsters, villains, and possibly secrets revealing more about Gallidon's history. If you want to introduce these kinds of toys in the Gallidon sandbox, you don't need to use the 7th Kingdom to do it. : )
Now - and bear with me! - that said, I'm not ruling out the possibility that the 7th Kingdom was a walled off portion of the world. But here's the rub - this approach raises some vexing questions about what's been going on there for the past 5,000 years.
According to the Orders, the most powerful deity known to Gallidon descended to the world five millenia ago in order to unite the lands and protect the mortals. If she and her agent (Emperor Gallidon) left a part of the land out of the unification formula, there would have to be a very good reason for it. A very good reason.
The theme of Gallidon is one of decay. Things were great for a long time, but behind the scenes, they got increasingly worse. Ultimately, they got so bad, it resulted in the Destruction, which caused people to take nothing for granted. Things are not what they were, and they likely never will be.
But it all started with a unified empire that slowly went horribly wrong.
So, as you think about what the 7th Kingdom is, please remember the larger context for it in the mythology of Gallidon.